Who Is More Right The Tea Party Or Occupy? Part 2


"Tea Party or Occupy"In the last post on this series I expounded on the graphic above that I think gives the proper frame for the beginning of a productive discussion concerning some similarities and major differences in regards to the Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street movements. They are similar in that they both are outraged by corporate power and an absolute inability to reign it in. Where they differ is on the root cause of the manipulation of regulations to game the system. Occupiers believe that corporations having too much power is the root and Tea Party believes that the central government having too much power is the root.

Leaving major differences in solutions aside I chose to focus on getting down to the root causes of corporate collusion aided by a manipulation of regulations.  In doing so I went back to the year 1913 and three major initiatives that were enacted by the Progressives at the time to reign in corporate and banking power. They were the enactment of the federal income tax, revocation of the States responsibility to appoint Senators to Congress, and the creation of the Federal Reserve.  I labeled all three as major deviations from our Founding blue print.

Accordingly, below is an excerpt from a post at American Thinker that outlines all three deviations above. We will leave the others aside for now and focus on the income tax:

Prior to the enactment of the income tax, most citizens were able to pursue their private economic affairs without the direct knowledge of the government. Individuals earned their wages, businesses earned their profits, and wealth was accumulated and dispensed with little or no interaction with government entities.
Passage of the 16th Amendment to the Constitution would forever change life in America, and not for the better. The 16th: The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
It’s hard to imagine how the aforementioned amendment could have been written any broader, or why 36 states would agree to such an open-ended federal power to strip citizens of their rightful earnings via taxation without representation and with literally no boundaries or limits to how far the federal government could ultimately go in their effort to buy the votes of some with the assets of others.
Since 1913, the federal tax code has been used as a primary tool of leftist social engineering, in which the people have been forced to fund a government they no longer recognize and no longer support. The U.S. Congress has a mere 11% approval rating today, and the executive branch is supported only by the 28% of citizens who benefit personally from the robbing of fellow citizens.
The states are now fiscal dependents of the federal government, and the federal government is a twenty-trillion-pound ape trampling through the rose garden of American life. Nobody seems to have any clue how to rein it all in.
All topics covered on this site are tied 20 questions it seeks to discuss
Leaving aside all the politics about Right vs. Left and all the bile that is often associated with those conversations, or even the whole idea of what the founders thought,  I want to focus in one question over the next few posts:
1. Is an income tax, especially a progressive one, moral?
To start that question I have chosen to refer to John Locke since he had such a profound impact on the modern world’s thinking on property and the rights associated with it. Here is the excerpt where he prefaces his case for inalienable rights below. I will leave his words unmolested in order to provoke thought and expound on some of mine in the next post of these series:
But though this be a state of liberty, yet it is not a state of licence: though man in that state have an uncontroulable liberty to dispose of his person or possessions, yet he has not liberty to destroy himself, or so much as any creature in his possession, but where some nobler use than its bare preservation calls for it. The state of nature has a law of nature to govern it, which obliges every one: and reason, which is that law, teaches all mankind, who will but consult it, that being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty, or possessions: for men being all the workmanship of one omnipotent, and infinitely wise maker; all the servants of one sovereign master, sent into the world by his order, and about his business; they are his property, whose workmanship they are, made to last during his, not one another’s pleasure: and being furnished with like faculties, sharing all in one community of nature, there cannot be supposed any such subordination among us, that may authorize us to destroy one another, as if we were made for one another’s uses, as the inferior ranks of creatures are for our’s. Every one, as he is bound to preserve himself, and not to quit his station wilfully, so by the like reason, when his own preservation comes not in competition, ought he, as much as he can, to preserve the rest of mankind, and may not, unless it be to do justice on an offender, take away, or impair the life, or what tends to the preservation of the life, the liberty, health, limb, or goods of another.

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16 thoughts on “Who Is More Right The Tea Party Or Occupy? Part 2

  1. The answer to your question is NO. An income tax, especially a “progressive” one is not moral. Locke got it correct and most interesting is the time period of 1913. This was a time of a strong communist presence on Earth that dominated Europe, it’s headquarters in Russia, and had it’s eye on the ball of the west, a.k.a America. I recommend reading “Meet The Witnesses” Miracle of the Sun – by John M. Haffert. Ties in with Locke’s interpretation nicely. This miracle happened in 1917 coincidentally just four years after these facts you wrote. So I think it fair to say we need only consider the general decline of morals since 1917 to realize that the world has not heeded Our Lady’s maternal call to conversion, as Locke also points out. According to this book, over one hundred thousand people saw the miracle and it effectively knocked down the Red Star in a few short years after 1917….. but the Red Star resurfaced as history tells us and it is the face of the progressive movement today. A simple name change and distorted information to young minds and bingo there you have it, alive and feeding well in modern man’s world unbeknown to it’s supporters. Basically to tax a citizen to his demise should be against the law. To force a person to pay for someone or something else before he can pay for himself is just morally wrong and corrupt. This is where we are today and I believe Our Lady is very sad about this and perhaps another visit is what is needed to knock the red star down for good this time. I have a feeling it may be in the works. One can hope! Good post, look forward to it’s continuation.

    • I totally agree. Ultimately, everything is God’s property. To take it from one man to give to another is theft. Pure and simple. Until that basic principle is birthed into society nothing will change. It gives the purse strings to the elite to dominate thus killing the free market that brought so many out of poverty…

      • @ Mike – Yes, minimal regulations and tax cuts and NO BAIL OUTS from the government is what got us better. Not happening today. Just look at history. Four years of tax increases, tax payer bail outs, then short sales on the bailed out companies and bingo mr. marx man! We are now insolvent, have lost hundreds of business’s, America does not produce enough of anything to re-pay the bail outs and so we are no where near recovery. After the crash of 29 we were better in 8 years. We are now 5 years into this depression and no where near recovery. SO, your way is not working better. Time to study a new subject. Don’t forget to pay your fair share. We are going to make property taxes for all people next, to make it fair for you! Hope you got a high paying job marx man.

  2. You might want to take the time to educate yourself to actual historical facts. I have consistantly posted material here from conservative sources that disputes your right wing propaganda.

    1. Four tears of tax increases? Where? We are now into the 13th year of the Bush tax cuts, government revenue is at record lows.

    I will post this again for you nilvehsd because obviously you didn’t read it. This is from David Stockman who was the Director of the Office of Management and Budget (1981–1985). He was one of the architects of “Reaganomics”.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/opinion/01stockman.html?pagewanted=all

    • Boy, you just will not go away will you? Four years of tax increases? WHERE? You are kidding, right? WHERE???? Everywhere marx man. Since you wrote that on 7/1/12, you are a legitimate idiot now, no apologies this time. Obamacare a.k.a. the affordable care act. BIGGEST tax hike in American history and BO owns it. Fool. Happened on Thursday 6/28/12. DoddFrank, tax hikes all over the place in the form of taxes and regulations. S Corp tax increases, many. But since you have no clue as to how a business operates I would not expect you to speak any of those facts, because you don’t know. Let’s move on, I never mentioned Hoover. Don’t know what the heck you’re talking about there,you must be thinking of someone else. I’ll bet the DNC has you in a lot of these conservative sites trying to spread BS. Do they pay well? Bush tax cuts, best thing that ever happened to people and the proof was the fact that we had 2.5% unemployment and ALL people were moving up and making money. I would jump back to GW days in a heart beat compared to this monstrosity of a liberal economy. No brainer. I am not blind and I am no fool. I am a small business owner for 25 years. I know the tax system, you do not. Tell me how much profit do businesses typically hope for? Tell me their expenses, tell me how & when they pay their taxes and how much do they pay. Tell me what the laws are to do business according to the almighty government. Then tell me what these businesses per personal income tax bracket stipulate???? Then after you tell me all that, tell me how it compares to the amount of government waste.??? Got those numbers marx man? Go look them up and send me another link, since you don’t know. GW tax cuts are NOT the reason we are in a depression, it is the fault of the liberal marxist progressive democrats. Barney Frank is who you can blame for forcing banks to make high risk loans and all bailed out by the tax payers. TARP, yea it happened in 2007 I know, then your boy came in and did it again, 100 billion higher that time, then he did it a few more times to the tune of 6 trillion so far. Quite a difference in the math, can’t believe you even went there. But you don’t know. Most likely you were still wearing diapers during GW or you would have been making money and buying property like everyone else. You want tax increases dude, you are going to get them. You do not get a pass, you will be expected to pay too. Don’t know why you would applaud the government taking your money, but you wanted it and it is here and coming strong. No republicans to blame this time idiot. This is why we have NO economy and why NO ONE has a job or a home or a business. This is what you support. Here it is. We got better from 1929 in 8 years because of NO TAX PAYER bail outs. Businesses went bust and new ones came back naturally. Solvency. Not like marxism. Marxism is not solvency, see that is why we are in financial trouble today. No business is making money and paying tax revenues. Gee, you thought it was because of tax cuts, no revenue because of tax cuts. Oh no, the tax cuts brought in so much tax revenue that S.S. had a surplus for the first time in many years, but you don’t know the laws. S.S. is social insurance, not an entitlement and the other great tax hike of American history brought to you personally by the dems once again, FDR. We got better not because of him, it was because the PRIVATE sector came back to doing business. That is how it works marx man. Capitalist make money, the gov. takes a lot of that money then the gov. gives it to illegals and lazy slobs who do nothing. You must be one of them aren’t you? What’s the matter, you’re complaining about life today??? You don’t like the way things are today?? Why not? Obama is making it so. You are complaining! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOL. Too funny. If you do not like the country you were born in, then you are FREE to go to a socialist or communist country if they will have you. GO please GO.

    • @ Marx (Masterson) man – I have some more follow up for you Mike, even though I do not believe that is your real name and that you are an actual real supporter of marxism & obama, but I will play along. ( no one uses their real name for a user name, might want to tell the commies that it tips us off ) Anyway, TARP – Troubled assets relief program. A GOVERNMENT program created to curb the ongoing financial crisis was for the feds to buy up mortgage backed securities to create liquidity in a strapped financial market so the sky did not fall. Can you tell me who/what this money was meant to go to? Do you know? It was for Fannie ( government), Freddie (government) AIG and Lehman Brothers. WHY them?? Well them because they were what??? Insurance companies and government insurance loan companies. O.K., so why were they TOO BIG TO FAIL, and why were they failing to the tune of needing nearly one trillion dollars in tax payer bail out money??? Well, with Barney’s high risk loan program in place for several years the banks needed some kind of pillow because Barney insisted that high risk loan people do not need to put 20% down on a financing option. Imagine that! You could buy anything up to 800K and only needed $1000. down! Woopeeeeee. See with normal conventional loans that have been the reality of the mtg.market for decades, you needed 20% down on the loan as part of the approval process. This 20% down is to insure the bank their pillow in case you default. Then at least they have your 20% in their accounts and lose on the rest….oh no. They don’t lose, they can foreclose and re-sell the property. But woe is the troubled times and reason for TARP – the value of these properties was falling quickly. Well when Barney told the banks they had to make these loans or face red lining and non-allowance to Fannie & Freddie they said they wanted some kind of insurance policy if there is not 20% down on these high risk loans, so they got PMI (private mtg. insurance). This was calculated into all these loans for the banks to count on in case of defaults. People who had to purchase PMI were those who did NOT put 20% down as I stated above. It would typically increase their mg. payment one, two or three hundred a month to pay for the insurance. Guess who the insurance companies were providing PMI??? You got it baby! AIG, Lehman Bro.’s, and Fannie/Freddie. All insured loans, insured by whom? Well the private companies who insured conventional loans had to cover that themselves, which is why they were selling securities on wall street and still do by the way. Obama did not remove that facet. The gov. companies, Fannie/Freddie, well they are insured by you & I and the rest of the citizens tax payer dollars. So in default we pay them back, which is what TARP was. It was promised, not something that just got invented for the emergency taking place. In default of these loans the ins. companies had to pay back the banks and the PMI they were charging people was exactly for that. But since the defaults were so large and wide, they could not cover the bill. That is when the government insured part comes in. And that is what TARP was and it was not GW’s idea, GW made seventeen requests to Congress to investigate these practices, no one listened to him, he was denied his investigation in to these programs because of the dems. TARP was already on the books in the Barney Frank legislation on high risk loans. It had been promised in case of defaults. Educate yourself marx man. I told you I was no fool and I have excellent vision. I sold these loans and I know how they worked. YOU DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING but BS. No experience is why no one listens to you. TARP was promised bail out insurance money in case of default. The PMI that people were paying did not cover the bill on defaults. AIG was an insurance co. They insured high and regular risk loans. They were too big to fail. So, with a mastermind like Barney who wrote such an awesome piece of legislation and it created so much insolvency, I guess obama figured hey, why not have Barney write the new financial bill to correct all of this hence we got dodd-frank. Wasn’t that brilliant!! You libs are so friggin smart ( loads of sarcasm there). We are seeing it today all over the place. Socialism is killing people. Liberals, commies and marxmen do not understand natural law or the way business takes place in the free market. So who better to write laws! The results you are living today. Why so blue marx man?? This is what you ordered. Fairness. So now to be fair you must pay the same as us rich people do. It’s fair, you ordered it, and now you say we need more tax increases. I’ll bet you graduate with honors of idiocy. Good luck making it in the world because your opportunity to achieve has just been given away and you gave it away. We conservatives are trying to save it. But the problem is we play by the rules and the laws and marxism and obama do not. So now we have a really great tax increase you should be celebrating because you ordered it! $500.00 per month is your tax to buy insurance. Isn’t that wonderful! AND the insurance is so bad that you will not have the benefit of living a long life. At 71 you become a non-productive person and the gov. says you do not qualify for cancer treatment. Too old. Just take a pill and go die somewhere and leave the health care program alone. Good job marx man! Just we all wanted. We live too long anyway. Go to hell marx man. Do not pass go, just leave the country you hate and let us try to put the pieces back together. Maybe we will call you when we are done, most likely we will need you to earn and help pay. Can you do what I just did? Tell me a story based on factual tangible events without looking it up or including a link? Are you able to do that???? Haven’t seen it yet, but I said I would play along, so I’ll look for your apology.

  3. Bailouts started under Bush.

    The Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) is a program of the United States government to purchase assets and equity from financial institutions to strengthen its financial sector that was
    signed into law by U.S. President George W. Bush on October 3, 2008. It was a component of the government’s measures in 2008 to address the subprime mortgage crisis.

  4. “After the crash of 29 we were better in 8 years.”

    and who may I ask was in office 8 years after the 29 crash nilvehsd?

    Want a little hint his initials are FDR.

    Here is a little history lesson for you nilvehsd. President Hoover doesn’t get much credit for it but it was instrumental in helping the US out of The Great Depression.

    The Revenue Act of 1932 (June 6, 1932, ch. 209, 47 Stat. 169) raised United States tax rates across the board, with the rate on top incomes rising from 25 percent to 63 percent. The estate
    tax was doubled and corporate taxes were raised by almost 15 percent.

    The provisions of the act applied to the taxable year of 1932 and all subsequent taxable years.

    It was signed into law by President Herbert Hoover.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenue_Act_of_1932

  5. You might want to spend a little time studying the historical facts that led up to the crash.

    “Prior to the start of the Great Depression, Hoover’s first Treasury Secretary, Andrew Mellon, had proposed and seen enacted, numerous tax cuts, which cut the top income tax rate from 73% to 24% (under Presidents Warren G. Harding and Calvin Coolidge). When combined with the sharp decline in incomes during the early depression, the result was a serious deficit in the federal budget. Congress,”

    Lets see nilvehsd tax cuts, isn’t that what Bush did leading up to the “Great Recession” of 2008?

    You are a blind fool nilvehsd that has swallowed the corporate media’s propaganda hook, line and sinker.

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